In this 4th episode of the SpicyIP Podcast Summer School Edition, I got the opportunity to speak with Ms. Chetali Rao (detailed bio below), a seasoned lawyer and multifaceted industry expert who is now working with civil society. The workshop that she conducted on behalf of Third World Network (TWN) during her time at the Summer School gave a hands-on-experience into Patent searches, while also igniting curiosity and interest among the students in understanding civil society better.
In this episode, I speak to her about her inspiration to join civil society, the skewed power dynamics between pharma stakeholders and her process of breaking down intricate scientific concepts.
Some of the key highlights in the podcast include when she talks about the knowledge gap that exists between what information is available and what is percolated to people, as well as the importance of relatable examples in connecting better with students. Her encouraging words on how one could make a difference (in pharma patent related civil society) even without a scientific background gave me a fresh perspective in the application of law. Scroll down and watch the episode to hear more from her! (You can view episode 01 with Mr. Murali Neelakantan here, episode 02 with Mr. Sandeep Rathod here, and episode 03 with Mr. Adarsh Ramanujan here.)
SpicyIP TV: The Summer School Edition – Episode 04 Chetali Rao on Getting into Civil Society, & Legal Education
In this episode (04), Sonisha Srinivasan speaks to Ms. Chetali Rao (bio below), Senior Scientific Advisor at TWN (Third World Network). Drawing from her pharmaceutical background, Ms. Rao shares what inspired her to enter civil society work and offers insights into the drug patent pharma landscape. She highlights the important role played by the Civil society and how they derive their strength from public opinion and advocacy. She also reflects on the importance of breaking down intricate scientific and legal issues to make them accessible to all.
About Chetali Rao: Chetali Rao is a Sr. Scientific Researcher and Legal Advisor at TWN and a seasoned lawyer and industry expert with over 19 years of experience globally across pharmaceuticals, vaccines, and biotech, specializing in IP, global health, and innovation.
SS: Ma’am, today we want to know from you what inspired you to enter into this space of civil society?
CR: Thank you for the question. Actually this has been like a point of discussion in a lot of places that I have been going because I come from a pharma background working with the innovator companies and then with generics and then moving to this space So for me, the journey has been actually very instrumental. Because when I was a part of that system where I actually used to look at how patents are being produced, are being probably filed and then getting granted and then moving to the generic sector. So if you look at how pharma has been producing a lot of of innovative medicines, but at the same time they are very expensive The generics try to fill up that gap by bringing drugs that are accessible to the market. But if you look at it from a civil society perspective, they are the ones who are actually looking at whether the drugs are reaching the patients or not. Because they talk to you from a ground level of where the access is getting denied to the patients. So I think that journey has been really instrumental and it has also helped me to develop a very holistic understanding of this entire drug patent pharma landscape. And how it actually affects access to the patients who actually need them or the center of why the drugs are being developed.
SS: So now when we talk of accessibility this takes me back to your session, we just had at the summer school where you were mentioning about knowledge gaps that exist between pharmaceutical companies and the general public. How do you think civil societies like TWN would play a role in bridging this knowledge gap and what are your takes on that?
CR: Yeah, I just discussed about knowledge gaps because I think that is a very vital factor that actually I think manoeuvres the way thinking of the people is. For example, when me and my colleagues at TWN are working on it, we actually clearly see that there is a kind of a, there is a kind of a I think abscess that exist between what the real information is and how it is being percolated to people. For example, many cases in case of drugs also sometimes it is being said that the drug may not be safe and efficacious. But at the same time, if you look at the knowledge that is there and the kind of gap that exists. So people generally believe what is there in the general domain. So I think this is where organizations like TWN and a lot of other civil society organizations fill the gap because they try to bring you the other side of the story also. For example, in case of one of the biosimilar drugs we were looking at it was generally said that this is the side effect that is associated with that drug. And people started relating that the biosimilar manufacturers product is not as safe as compared to the originator products. But when we discussed a lot with the scientist and the academia’s and the people who are actually working on them. We got to know that that was a side effect which is already associated with the innovative products also. So this is a kind of knowledge gap that exists with respect to the drug. So people take it on the face of it that maybe that may be the reason for it. But then I think more interactions with academia bridging the gap and I think taking out papers and submissions and things like that to the general public. And I think more of webinars and sessions that you’re holding like the ones that you’re holding today is able to cover that gap. And mitigate those, I think the wrong notions that many times percolated to the general public.
SS: And bring about transparency.
CR: Exactly.
SS: Because this involves life
CR: That is why it is very important because here we’re not talking about technology sector at all. We’re talking about something which actually affects the life of people. So it is like very important because these are drugs, these are real people. We are talking about and this is accessibility of those drugs to those people. So in these cases, I think it’s tremendously important that organizations like SpicyIP and Third World Network and a lot of other not for profit organizations working in this bridge this gap.
SS: Right. With your experience in the pharmaceutical sector as well, where do you think the bargaining power of civil societies like this lies as compared to corporates like these pharmaceutical companies?
CR: I think if we talk about the pharmaceutical companies, they come from a position of strength. Because they hold the financial resources as compared to the not for profit organizations, which do not have the kind of money, which if I talk specifically about the pharmaceutical sector, they do not hold that kind of money that Big Pharma has. Also if you come from the leveraging position, they are in a very powerful position and a strengthful position. We’ve seen the pharma lobby in US as well as well. So the civil society basically brings in the strength from public opinion, from public advocacy. Their role and working at the grassroots level. They may not have the kind of financial resources which is commanded by Big Pharma They may not have the leveraging position, which is there or the position of strength that the Big Pharma holds but at the same time, they have something on their side, which is public opinion. They have something which is public advocacy. and they have something which is ground level knowledge of the things, because these people actually work with patients who are most affected. So for them from a pharma background, if I talk about it’s very important. So I think that is how they try to public civil society organizations try to bring in more transparency to the system. because if you see the pharmaceutical companies, it’s all about secrecy. Secrecy in respect to how the drugs are there, how the price is there. And everything related to it is shrouded with secrecy.
But civil society comes from a perspective of bringing equity, transparency and bringing it more in the public domain. so people are aware of it. What actually is, for example, the mismatch that is there in the cost of production of drugs, the way it is being, the price at which has been given to the people and the actual cost of development that is related to that drug. So these are the kind of things that I think the bargaining power with civil society is because they try to bring everything to the open transparency to equity.
SS: Which is the most important.
CR: It is the most important, especially with pharmaceuticals.
SS: You taught today in the class, you taught a whole bunch of us who have no idea about pharmaceuticals or have no science background. And you taught it in such a way that we could understand about a lot of things that you were mentioning. How did you break down such, you know, concepts like intricate concepts in a way where students are able to understand. and specifically with when you brought in prior art searches, which is something technical, but necessary and even students without a science background can do it. You gave the confidence that even a student without a science background can take up these things and do it. So how did you break down these concepts and how are you able to navigate your way through making students understand this and what was your experience with it?
CR: It’s very true that there is a general misnomer that intellectual property, especially patents and especially drug patents is something which is very core and specific to the people from science background. It’s true to some extent, but coming from a civil society perspective, it has actually transformed my thinking also because you see people who are working here who are not from pharmaceutical background or who are not from a chemistry background. But they are so articulate in the legal thoughts because they know and that is what I was trying to tell the students here because you all are from a legal background. So there is a way that you maneuver these things to your legal acumen. So for example, if we talk about prior art search, prior art searches, what is there in the general knowledge. It’s a proof that is there, right? That kind of an information you may also need if you are someone who’s an entrepreneur who’s working or to bring new technologies to the platforms. So in those cases also you need, so you just have to break down into conceptually.
For example, one of my colleagues is not from a scientific background. He has his purely from an arts background. But if you look at the kind of comments that he will give, only from the legal background he will give. But the comments are so pointed that it makes people from legal background and scientific background actually think that yes, this is where the gap is there, we need to address this point. So you should not be taken back by the fact that it is you can also always help people around you who have a scientific background to help you. For example, this is where I fell the gap in a lot of my colleagues with them. So who are not from that background, you can always have people who can fill in that gaps for you, make you understand in a very simple manner, but at the same time do not allow your legal knowledge to sit back. You always put that kind of a knowledge in front and try to question that if this is there, for example, my colleague is even able to look at Markush structures Only from his background, we consider it to be something very, very chemically tough to maneuver. But he does it with such an finesse that the questions that he poses gives us a very important thing to think about food for thought. So that is what I always tell them that put your legal thing in front and then you will be able to break down things into yes, hardcore chemistry if you talk about you may not be able to understand the background and everything of it, but then take the help of your scientific colleagues and you will be able to work through them and that is what probably I did today.
And I think it’s very important that you bring people from multi backgrounds, not only science backgrounds, those it’s set to be a forte of people with science backgrounds. But here you see the participants are asking such pointed questions that you know that they are actually absorbing a lot of stuff from there. So I think that is where workshops like these are tremendously helpful because they help to understand things from a very holistic perspective.
SS: And I think this is also some, this is there are also skills which is needed in practice and I mean it’s also something which could be incorporated in law schools because I think law school learning is more of you know like with respect to the theoretical part of it and such applicability and such workshops would definitely make a difference to the students who are actually interested in the field and want to take this up.
CR: I think I was actually I was actually very taken aback by the fact that everybody was so interested and they were from a very different background. So it’s not just about the mix of people who are here, but it was always about the learning that they wanted to do because I think this is not the kind of learning that they are getting in the law schools. There are probably these hands-on exercises that I think SpicyIP is doing a tremendous job here that these hand-on workshops and hand-on exercises that they are getting the students. So they were even able to understand the nuances of how drugs are there, how it’s affecting people and situations related to that So they are able to comprehend general policy things that are also affecting accessibility issues and not just hardcore pharmaceutical things related to the process.
SS: These examples that were given also made a lot of difference because if it was something which everybody could relate to and not a random big molecule name which we may not really understand.
CR: I think real life examples are always very important and especially in countries like India where we see these kinds of cases happening so frequently. So real life examples for example breast cancer cases or rare diseases cases. It strikes a chord with people, it’s not just about science, it’s not just about pharma, it’s not just about the big big scientific names and drug names It’s about situations affecting real life people like you and me and how these drugs are affecting them. So I think that helps to coalesce a lot and it brings a lot of bonding among people to understand that.
SS: Thank you so much ma’am, it was great having you in class and here and I think it really made a difference and it so nice to see people like you bringing in such insightful thoughts and breaking down such concepts in a way that everybody can understand and it really needs a lot of effort. So thank you so much ma’am
CR: Thank you so much, it was a pleasure being here and it was a pleasure interacting and many thanks to SpicyIP for actually I think bringing me here and I think it opened a very different perspective for me as well to interact with so many students from varied backgrounds. It’s tremendous and I’m really humbled and it’s amazing experience for me also to do it.
SS: Thank you so much, ma’am And it was really a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.